Taking on Male Mental Health: An Interview with Rob from Dudes and Dogs

By Liam Paul

Liam from The Positive Well-Being Peer Support Group was joined by Rob Osman, founder of Dudes and Dogs, to talk about men’s mental health and how dogs and walks are providing a safe space for men to open up about their mental well-being.

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Liam: Ok, so today we’ve got Rob Osman with us, who is the founder of Dudes and Dogs. So Rob, thank you very much for joining us today. Could you start by telling us about Dudes and Dogs and how the Community Interest Company came to be?

Rob: Yeah, sure, and thank you. You got Community interest company bang on as well, everyone puts us in the charity bracket, which is what we're trying for but we're not there yet. What do Dudes and Dogs basically do?

"Dudes and Dogs has a simple premise. Our vision is to show every man in every corner of the world that isn't just OK to talk, it's vitally important."

We do that through the simple premise of dog walks. We put a group of guys together, we found five or six to be the perfect number. We have what we call a dog dude, which are the guys that lead the walks, and they bring a dog so the people coming on the walks they don't even need to have a dog to join in. You just come along, and you go and natter (talk) for an hour or so about the big stuff. The small stuff. Anything in between or you might not natter at all. It might be such an alien concept, that going out with blokes to talk about your feelings, your emotions, that the first few weeks you just come and listen. What we provide is a safe space. We train our Dog Dudes to provide that safe space for guys, so they can come, and they feel that if they are comfortable to talk, they've got a place to do so. Dudes and Dogs came about through what worked for me and my experienced with social anxieties and what I’ve done to manage them. My depression, my denial of who I am. My lack of acceptance of what I believed I was didn’t fit in with masculinity or what a man should be. I’m a fairly big guy at 6ft3 and I put an expectation on myself of what I believed society wanted from me and the truth is, I'm super feminine, I get emotional. You know if I’m stereotyping, I feel I fit more into the female category than the male one. I would always be asked at job interviews for instance, what's your biggest strength? I would say, I get a good read on people. I never took the time to stop and think why that was. I spent all this time hiding my emotions and hiding the fact that that’s what I'm good at. It wasn't until I stopped and realized that that's my superpower, not my strength. When I started talking about it and being more open, I saw the benefits. Well, and I've always wanted to help people. I just didn't know the direction to go. So I started looking for groups out there and I couldn't quite find the right match. The fact is blokes do not sit down very well face to face and have a discussion very often. Dudes and Dogs changes that by changing the environment, taking men outside, introducing a dog and changing their feelings. Blokes are opening up in a far different way and we're getting guys coming on walks that have never looked for support before and they've come along, and they get it and they talk about experiences and it seems to be making a difference.

Liam: Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. What you guys are achieving it really is. It's interesting what you say about the social expectations and the expectations that you had for yourself in regard to the masculinity, which is very much a social construct in itself. Masculinity and what men are expected to be, those expectations are holding men back from opening up, and then the approach Dudes and Dogs is taking in changing the direction and the environment. Yeah, it's amazing.

Rob: That’s a really good way of putting it what you just said, about these constraints that we live within and why do we? This has been one of the healthy things for me is to understand is, why I felt I needed to be that way when since being more open about the way I am and who I am like, life would have been easier for me and everyone around me.

Liam: You’ve mentioned a couple of times now how opening up and talking is vital. Can you tell us why you think that is?

Rob: Yeah, well look. There's so many answers to that question. First of all, it makes you realize you ain't alone. When we suffer we tend to think we're the only ones that feel that way, no one else is having that experience. For example, I'm nearly 40. I've started Dudes and Dogs and I've never been in a financially worse position in my entire life. It is so scary it is terrifying, and I think “Jesus I’m nearly forty, no other forty-year-olds are scraping around like this. They're not doing it. What the hell am I doing to myself!”.

"Talking about it and opening up made me realize that I’m not the only person in this situation."

This approach applies to feelings as well as situations. An example, on a walk Dudes and Dogs went out on, there was a guy on the walk who had been through some horrific traumas in his life. He’d never received support for it and all of a sudden he's got that support from Dudes and Dogs and he's talking about feelings and emotions that are just as relevant to him as they are for the guy who's actually feeling alright in the moment. So yeah, despite the fact that he was dealing with some massive traumas and other guys on the walk weren’t, didn't mean they couldn't share the same feelings and emotions and the same confusions in life by talking and opening up, theirs number one. Number two, is you help others. They see you opening up and they think, OK that wasn't so bad, I don't think he's an idiot for speaking like that and talking and being open. It might be alien. I remember again I did an interview with the guy who has experienced trauma and as he spoke I had a tear in my eye. He asked me if I did that on purpose, make myself cry. I was surprised that he thought I would make myself cry and that it wasn’t my natural emotional response. It shows how alien emotions were to him because of the culture and community that he comes from. It's the same with other blokes, talking is just alien. So by speaking you’re doing it, you normalize it. You create a normalizing of the situation. So there's a couple of examples straight away.

Liam: I completely agree with everything you said there, especially the fact about normalizing something and encouraging people to talk. It’s very much part of what we try to achieve at mental well-being peer support group. However, our approach has had to change with the restrictions that covid-19 brought. Has Dudes and Dogs changed their approach on how they deliver support and create these safe spaces?

Rob: Cards on the table, it’s been frustrating as hell mate. It's been one of the biggest struggles, I've become quite frustrated with it. I mean not with the pandemic, I know everyone else has, but we've not been able to do Dudes and Dogs. I’ve found what I wanted to do, and I’ve found something that is actually helping people and making a difference and I can't do it. First lockdown we had a couple of options, one is we just we just went quiet, and we went with that, wait until it was all over. We tried something entirely different, and I went down that route. so, we reached out to a few other organizations locally to see if they wanted to be involved. I put together a weekly program which involved two yoga sessions every week. We had fitness session every morning with me. We had a pub quiz. We had checking in calls, where I would just be in an online room ready for people to drop in and have a chat should they need it. We had official checking in calls called Dude How's Your Mood. We were also producing shows for the guys, where we had live music on a Sunday. So we just created an online community and put your arms around the guys. We said we had two choices here we go, no and just hope Dudes and Dogs will still be around this time next year. Or we go no this is needed, and that's the route we took, and it seemed to pick up and evolve, and actually our community online as brought us a lot closer. That presents its own challenges as now we're trying to get back to walks. We’re trying to actually push people away, well not push people away, that's the wrong way of putting it, but we want people getting on walks, not so much the online community. The walks brings this amazing space, where blokes are talking, really talking, about feelings. So it's how we get that balance back. We started to do walks again during the introduction of the tier system. We followed the rule of 6 but for whatever reason we weren't getting great attendance and I think that was down to people's fears about getting out and about as well. So, with this last lockdown we started doing virtual walks where the Dog Dudes go out on a walk and just encourage blokes to go and do the same. Actually, that's worked really well, and that's given that support. We’re restarting our walks in Easter again, touch wood last time, and we've had the guys who’ve joined the virtual works already signed up to come on them walks when we restart, which is just amazing. There's one guy in particular he's been going through some really hard stuff and his girlfriend has been trying to help him for a long time and she's reached out to me. We got him on some Virtual walks, and he’s booked on already to do the Easter walks. It has been crap. It's been frustrating as hell and again in the interest of practising what I preach about being honest and upfront, at times it p****d me off and I’ve wanted to give up, I won't lie. But we’ve got a bit of light again. We’ve got some light at the end of the tunnel again.

Liam: Yeah, I was saying just the other day that things seem a little bit more hopeful just with the change of weather and the fact that we've actually got an end date so to speak, something to look forward to. But it's completely natural just allow yourself to feel that, that frustrated, its natural and completely valid. You mentioned in your story on the Dudes and Dogs website that they suffered with social anxiety as a child. Now anxiety is extremely common as far as mental health disorders and it's something that comes up quite a lot in our mental well-being peer support group. What thoughts would you give to any of our readers who suffer with anxiety?

Rob: It's a really good question mate. So, my social anxiety showed itself by me being physically sick on a night out, first thing I would do when I got to the bars was go to the toilets and throw up. Not making myself sick. Physically I could feel as I walked into a bar the saliva building up in my mouth, sweat would start, tingles all over and I would just have to go throw up and then I was alright. That is what I did to enjoy a night out and once I had a few jars I'd be alright sort of thing, that was normal to me and I normalized it. That's where going back to what we discussed initially, talk, talk, talk again. I feel if I’d have spoken to my friends, If I’d just spoken to my family about what I was actually like and how I was actually feeling and why I was putting myself in these ridiculous social situations, I would have realized how unhealthy it was and I would have tackled it a lot sooner than in my 30s. Don't be embarrassed by it. I would say that every single one of us feels anxieties at some point or another. It's to the extreme that we allow it to control us. I am a believer that you can get over it. I don't believe anxiety is something you suffer with all your life; you do but you manage it. You learn ways and that's incredibly difficult and I don't know the ways for myself yet. I haven't worked it out by the way, I haven't figured it out. I still suffer crippling anxieties, but I genuinely believe I will find a way to manage them. I use self-talk a lot in my head, I tell myself how mad it is to be doing that stuff. I'd also say be open and be honest about how you're feeling. Don't feel you're weird or that you are unusual because you're feeling that way. I’m pretty sure if we went around a room of people, every single one of them would hold their hands up to anxieties. It's becoming more recognized now. So yeah talk, share, open up, everything we talk about is being open and sharing.

"People can't help you if they don't know what you're going through. Be open, have friends like your peer group, have support. We all need it."

Anxiety is so personal to everyone, this is only my side of things, what I do and what works for me because they might not for other people. There are other ways to manage anxiety, but please don't think the way to manage is to shut off. It's not.

Liam: Thank you Rob! It's definitely helpful to be a lot more open about it, but like you say, the experiences of anxiety are as unique as the person experiencing it. It’s very much a case of finding what works for them individually but talking is a great place to start. One of the recent topics explored by the positive well-being peer support group was self-esteem, how important this is and how it can fluctuate depending on what life throws us. Would you agree with this and how do you manage your self-esteem?

Rob: Yeah, that's an interesting one. I'm always concerned self-esteem is going to turn over into arrogance but you can absolutely have confidence and belief and not be arrogant. It's one of the things I do when I'm in a bad place. I become quite an arrogant person deliberately to push people away. Self-esteem and self-belief is hugely important. This sounds naff I know it does, but just love yourself because you are an incredibly special person. It may be that you've got these gremlins in your system that tell you very differently. Speaking personally, I thought I was a fraud. I was pretending to be what I thought a man was. I acted like I was full of bravado, self-confidence. The fact was, I would go home and regularly overthink things. I'm only speaking from my point of view because I don't feel I have the right to tell anyone what to do. There is also nothing wrong with knowing you're good at something, it's what you then choose to do with that knowledge. I know I’m good with emotions and I choose to use it in a positive way. So when I say I'm good with emotions that isn't me being arrogant. That's just having self-esteem and being confident. I'm really sorry, this is a really waffly answer and it's a really good question. What I’m saying is that its absolutely vital to have that self-esteem and that confidence and that can come from yourself and from others around you.

Liam: I understand what you’re saying, thank you. I find my self-esteem can very much fluctuate depending on what's going on. I'll give you an example. My first written piece at University I did really well, which built on the confidence I don’t really have in my education ability. It's something that I've built up. So then on my next written piece I didn't do as well and it just knocked me a bit. Hit my self-esteem and took me down a little bit. It’s finding that self-monologue, so to speak, to remind myself that I'm not an impostor. I do deserve to be there with everybody else. But yeah, there's certain things that can happen to everyone along the way that kind of knocks us down so we have to then build ourselves back up again. It’s having the little tools in our arsenal, so to speak, like I have a list of things that I have achieved throughout the day. The little things, even if it’s just having a shave or going for a walk or going for a run. It may be the little things but it's the things to be grateful for and to feel achieved by them. That’s one of the things that helps build my self-esteem back up.

Rob: Absolutely! You mention impostor. Since the start dates of Dudes and Dogs this feeling is huge. There are so many professionals out there trying to help people. Then I come along saying, yeah, it's my skill, that makes me feel like an imposter. Even though we've got stuff from Dudes and Dogs, which is helping people. I've seen the benefit and we have saved lives. I can sit here and say there are guys that wouldn't be alive without the support of Dudes and Dogs. Yet I don't feel entitled to do it.

Liam: That's amazing, Rob. It's completely natural to feel like that, but what you're doing and what you've achieved is incredible. You can see it on online, on Facebook. How active and how supportive the guys are of each other. It's such a safe space, I know if I needed somebody or something to fall back on, I know for a fact that either you or one of the guys would be there 100%. So, what is it about Dudes and Dogs do you think, that's made it such a huge success then?

Rob: Cool logo no (laughs)…. It's going back to what I said about why it worked, sort of how it came about and what works at the beginning. Blokes do like dogs, that makes things very easy. So, if we look at the two things separately, there is a real drive to get towards equality and rightly so. It's absolutely right that sex, gender, race, whatever shouldn't make a single bit of difference. But that doesn't mean there isn't a place for a community for men to belong in the same way that there isn't a place for a community of women to belong as well. That doesn't make you misogynistic by saying that, it just makes you realize that that there is. Some men feel that by wanting to have a male space to belong, that that's wrong. There is still a place to have an all-male community to allow men to talk. Going back to Jung theories and very basic theorists right from the beginning, about needing a place to belong and that's OK. So that's the first thing. Men sometimes, put them in front of women and they will show off, play the part or we won't open up because we think it makes us weak to do so. By giving that male space, that's number one. The dogs bring a huge part. The dogs give the guys something to talk about, they’re a starting point for conversation. There are so many crap questions you could ask about dogs: how old is your dog? Where’d you get your dog? You can go endlessly. So it gives you something to talk about. The dogs also give you what I call, the pressure valve moment. That instant release and the way to describe it is, you're in the theatre or the cinema and there's this real tense moment and it's been going a while. Then someone says something, and someone will laugh inappropriately and it's them letting off the pressure 'cause it's been such an intense 5-10 minutes of theatre. That is what the dogs do on our walks, they allow that pressure valve moment, let the pressure off.

"We can be talking about the biggest, heaviest things in the world and then a dog comes up and does something stupid and it changes your thought process. It allows you to laugh briefly."

“My dogs trying to hump your dog”, whatever it might be. Then you come back to the conversation, almost refreshed and that's what they bring on the walk, a pressure release, a moment to laugh. I think there's a lot of reasons why Dudes and Dogs works? One is that all male safe space, and two is the dogs and this sort of relief and the release they provide and three, the dogs start a conversation, and that seems to appeal.

Liam: That's fantastic. I never actually thought that about the dogs, but that makes complete sense. The fact that they provide a little bit of comedy in something that can be quite dark and heavy.

Rob: It wasn’t until I saw it happen mate and I saw it in action I realised just how strong that was. It was a sausage dog trying to hump a retriever. We were talking about suicide at the time with someone. Someone was in a very dark place. It was a heavy conversation. Then the dogs did that, and we all laughed. I thought I shouldn’t be laughing, but then I realised the positive impact that it had.

Liam: Brilliant! So what’s next for Dudes and Dogs?

Rob: So we have something to do with travel coming up on the BBC, which I can’t mention too much about. More importantly, we are re-launching our walks at the start of Easter weekend. We're going back out, my aim is to have 12 sites in total set up for then. So, I’m interviewing some current guys at the moment, fast tracking their training, so that's priority number one. We've just put some ads out for some voluntary roles as well. I've been doing a lot of this stuff myself and that comes at it’s own price, so we’ve just started recruiting for three voluntary roles in social media, grant management and website and E Commerce. So that will change how we can do things. If anyone from Exeter University wants to get involved, we rely on the kindness of volunteers giving their time, and there's a lot of talent down there I'm sure.

Liam: Yeah for sure. I'll make sure that I advertise that. So how would people get in touch if they’re interested in those roles?

Rob: Just drop me an email: rob@dudesanddogs.co.uk or through the website: www.dudesanddogs.co.uk. Another thing we've launched is our corporate plan, where we've spoken to a few businesses. One of the biggest traps I fell into and I got seriously ill was when I went into the workplace. I probably fell into some of the habits and patterns that people might do. I guess when people start work or uni, they are trying to prove themselves and I ended with Bell’s palsy. I ended up with a decent car, a good salary and at a good level. But I didn't even notice, I just took on too much. I fell into those patterns and then I realized that a lot of people do and not just men. So, we’ve put together Let's Talk about Sam. We've joined together with a company called Hope Health and we're providing loads of workspace stuff and we are training all our Dog Dudes as mental health first aiders. So the future is huge mate, we will get it going and we will be worldwide. I used to say I want Dudes and Dogs to be like Movember. That is now my goal. I want this to be worldwide. I want to help. Our mission statement I value, which I read every day: help every man in every corner, help every man from every culture and community and we can't do that if we don't get this worldwide and known by everyone. Watch this space.

Liam: I truly believe honestly Rob, I truly believe that you will succeed at that, like just talking to you today has been such a breath of fresh air. I wish you all the best I really do. Thank you so much.

Rob: Thank you mate, come join the community. Come join some walks.

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Please be advised that the topics discussed in this article are not the opinions of a health professional. If you were affected by any of the topics raised in this article please seek support from a professional or have a look at our resources.